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‎minutes/2018-07-23.irc.log

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2018-07-23 11:07:02 ~japaric ok, let's start this meeting
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2018-07-23 11:07:23 ~japaric we have to clarify quite a few things around the looks of the embedded web page
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2018-07-23 11:07:53 ~japaric first item in the header of the web page (line 24 in the etherpad)
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2018-07-23 11:08:31 ~japaric so, we agreed we wanted a video of embedded projects but we didn't define whether we wanted a single video or something like a carousel
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2018-07-23 11:08:42 thejpster I'd like to see a single video, in this kind of style: https://humanism.org.uk/thatshumanism/
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2018-07-23 11:09:18 hannobraun I always imagined the video header to be more in the Patreon style. I think it's main purpose is to grab attention, so longer videos might be counterproductive.
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2018-07-23 11:09:19 korken89 Can someone share the etherpad link?
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2018-07-23 11:09:29 ~japaric korken89: https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/embedded-wg
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2018-07-23 11:09:35 korken89 Thanks!
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2018-07-23 11:09:50 thejpster Ok, I don't like the patreon page because it autoplays. When you make satellite modems, high bandwidth websites make you sad.
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2018-07-23 11:09:59 ~japaric thejpster: :-)
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2018-07-23 11:10:01 thejpster Also, there's no video controls.
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2018-07-23 11:10:27 ~japaric I also don't like videos that autoplay
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2018-07-23 11:10:29 thejpster If it's at the top like this, I'd prefer the segger.com example.
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2018-07-23 11:10:39 thejpster But I really want someone to make a whiteboard video too :)
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2018-07-23 11:10:44 korken89 A single video to catch the viewer is good, as long as there is a "more"
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2018-07-23 11:10:57 ~japaric the segger page uses static images in the header
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2018-07-23 11:11:12 ~japaric thejpster: whiteboard video?
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2018-07-23 11:11:19 thejpster https://humanism.org.uk/thatshumanism/
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2018-07-23 11:11:36 ~japaric oh, I see
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2018-07-23 11:12:05 ~japaric korken89: what would "more" lead to?
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2018-07-23 11:12:06 thejpster We almost certainly don't have that kind of budget, but I offer it as an example.
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2018-07-23 11:12:36 hannobraun I have no problem with autoplay as long as there's no audio involved. Bandwidth is a valid concern though.
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2018-07-23 11:13:29 korken89 japaric: Showcases of what people have done, but it can be a part of the testimonials as well
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2018-07-23 11:13:29 ~japaric if we have a video that autoplays and has no control I think it would be hard to add links to the projects' pages
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2018-07-23 11:13:41 korken89 People like videos :)
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2018-07-23 11:13:52 ~japaric agree
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2018-07-23 11:13:55 thejpster People like sharing videos on social media.
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2018-07-23 11:14:00 korken89 Indeed
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2018-07-23 11:14:06 hannobraun thejpster: My understanding is, that we're currently talking about video to show off embedded projects. So we'd need real footage.
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2018-07-23 11:14:31 thejpster I'm not sure we've got enough projects to make that work. I'm also concerned they'd go out of date fairly quickly.
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2018-07-23 11:15:00 hannobraun I think it makes sense that if we show off multiple projects in a video or carousel, there should be some kind of link to more details about the project.
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2018-07-23 11:15:25 korken89 @thejpster: Not yet probably
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2018-07-23 11:15:51 thejpster A generic "Imagine a world where your cheap generic plastic junk wasn't also full of security holes. Imagine a world when you didn't have to spend six months debugging a buffer overflow. *Cut to wide shot of scorched earth*" kind of thing.
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2018-07-23 11:16:03 hannobraun thejpster: How would they go out of date? Even if the ecosystem moves on, they'd still be cool projects made with Rust.
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2018-07-23 11:16:43 thejpster It just feels like things are fairly fast moving, projects come, projects go.
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2018-07-23 11:17:58 ~japaric perhaps there should be a (video) gallery of projects but it should be its own page
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2018-07-23 11:18:09 ~japaric I'd rather not make the landing page grow in size over time
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2018-07-23 11:18:21 ~japaric size and content**
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2018-07-23 11:18:42 hannobraun In my mind, the point is to show people that you can do cool things with Rust. Even if a specific project is no longer maintained or doesn't even compile, a video of a cool robot powered by Rust will always demonstrate what Rust is capable of.
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2018-07-23 11:18:43 thejpster I'd support that
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2018-07-23 11:19:12 thejpster (I was referring to @japaric's comment)
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2018-07-23 11:19:43 hannobraun Makes sense.
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2018-07-23 11:19:49 ~japaric if we go with a separate gallery page we probably want to use the header to grab attention by having a video that autoplays
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2018-07-23 11:20:18 ~japaric if it doesn't autplays the visitor may not bother clicking the header; reducing the attention grabbing effect
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2018-07-23 11:20:36 ~japaric and the video should be a collection of flashy projects built with Rust
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2018-07-23 11:21:00 ~japaric and have a 'see more projects' link that leads to the gallery page
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2018-07-23 11:21:16 hannobraun And if you click the video, it links to the gallery page.
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2018-07-23 11:21:29 ~japaric that too
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2018-07-23 11:22:19 ~japaric how does that sound? ^^^
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2018-07-23 11:22:55 hannobraun I totally agree with japaric.
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2018-07-23 11:23:16 korken89_2 Sorry, I had a lost connection, but I'll join from here
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2018-07-23 11:23:38 thejpster that all seems fine to me
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2018-07-23 11:23:41 ~japaric korken89_2: you can see the logs in https://bot.tockos.org/tockbot-moz/embedded-bot/
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2018-07-23 11:24:00 korken89_2 Ah, awesome! Thanks
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2018-07-23 11:24:27 korken89_2 Sounds good japaric
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2018-07-23 11:24:28 ~japaric the gallery would be maintained by the community. We can discuss the exact layout of that in another meeting
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2018-07-23 11:24:39 ~japaric layout and update / inclusion policy**
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2018-07-23 11:25:23 thejpster Would it be more efficient for a small team (/ one person) to work up some concepts and show them to the group?
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2018-07-23 11:25:36 thejpster I'm not entirely sure design-by-committee is going to be practical.
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2018-07-23 11:25:39 ~japaric thejpster: you mean for the gallery?
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2018-07-23 11:26:01 thejpster tbh, for the website in general. I mean, as long as we're agreed on the broad thrust.
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2018-07-23 11:26:21 thejpster I have no real artistic merit and don't really consider myself qualified to comment on such matters.
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2018-07-23 11:26:32 korken89_2 I would agree with thejpster here, this type of thing can be bikesheded forever
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2018-07-23 11:26:44 * thejpster has the benefit of a design department and so usually avoids these sorts of things
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2018-07-23 11:26:57 ~japaric jamesmunns and I will work with the web designer but we need to agree on the initial content / layout
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2018-07-23 11:28:45 thejpster Ok, so my weak preference is to embed videos (no autoplay, playback controls, ideally on YouTube so I can cast them somewhere else) rather than use them for headings, but ... *shrug*
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2018-07-23 11:29:17 ~japaric thejpster: noted, will bring it up as an alternative and discuss it with the designer
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2018-07-23 11:29:24 thejpster I agree with keeping the gallery content off on a second page, but maybe rotate "project of the week" or something on the front page so it isn't completely static.
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2018-07-23 11:30:07 thejpster I'm unclear what a video of a project would look like - animated slideshow, talking heads, wide shots of the hardware on an engineer's desk, screencaps ?
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2018-07-23 11:31:56 hannobraun thejpster: In my mind, an attention-grabbing video would be stitched together of very short clips of different projects. A few seconds of a blinking LED, a few seconds of a balancing robot, etc.
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2018-07-23 11:32:22 ~japaric I agree with hannobraun for the header video
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2018-07-23 11:32:37 ~japaric for the gallery we could leave the projects to pick their own format and just give them the space
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2018-07-23 11:33:12 thejpster I think you'll have to resort to stock video clips. I can't imagine you'll get the shots you need in appropriate quality from a random selection of projects built by a random selection of people.
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2018-07-23 11:33:32 hannobraun Yes. The gallery could use much longer videos or another form of presentation completely. There the focus would be more on depth.
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2018-07-23 11:34:08 ~japaric thejpster: we'll see what the website team says
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2018-07-23 11:34:47 ~japaric ok, I think the header is settled
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2018-07-23 11:34:59 ~japaric moving on, the next section is the why Rust section
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2018-07-23 11:35:02 thejpster Ok, I'm just going by the number of time I had to walk across a bridge to film things: https://vimeo.com/102209989
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2018-07-23 11:35:06 thejpster s/things/this
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2018-07-23 11:35:17 ~japaric line 57 in the etherpad
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2018-07-23 11:35:38 hannobraun thejpster: My main concern would be that the video would look weird, because we'd get different quality from different projects. It's hard to judge for me, it's been ages since I worked with video.
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2018-07-23 11:35:38 thejpster I like all of those. LGTM.
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2018-07-23 11:35:49 ~japaric I think we had something like https://www.zephyrproject.org/ in mind
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2018-07-23 11:36:03 ~japaric but we want to add links to the book in the text
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2018-07-23 11:36:40 thejpster Inter-op icon is like a handshake or something
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2018-07-23 11:36:58 ~japaric there's a list of 5 reasons / attributes. does the style and selection sound good to you?
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2018-07-23 11:37:12 thejpster yeah, they all seem fine
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2018-07-23 11:37:27 ~japaric the icons are still to be determined
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2018-07-23 11:37:30 korken89_2 lgtm
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2018-07-23 11:37:47 hannobraun I also think these look good.
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2018-07-23 11:37:48 ~japaric if you have ideas speak now :P
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2018-07-23 11:37:56 thejpster for concurrency, I'd have a couple of gears
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2018-07-23 11:37:57 ~japaric ideas for the icons*
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2018-07-23 11:38:35 thejpster oh I can't paste images into the etherpad
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2018-07-23 11:38:45 ~japaric you can paste the link
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2018-07-23 11:38:55 thejpster Nah, I've got Word 2016's Icon page open
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2018-07-23 11:39:40 thejpster portability is totally the little luggage trolley with a box on it
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2018-07-23 11:39:47 ~japaric the static analysis icon could be a magnifying glass?
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2018-07-23 11:39:55 thejpster or a microscope
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2018-07-23 11:40:04 hannobraun Maybe some kind of padlock for static analysis (as in, it's solid, safe)? Not sure about this.
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2018-07-23 11:40:33 hannobraun thejpster: Ha, I like that (portability icon) :)
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2018-07-23 11:40:38 ~japaric just write down the ideas
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2018-07-23 11:40:47 ~japaric in the etherpad
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2018-07-23 11:40:53 ~japaric a link to an image also helps
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2018-07-23 11:41:04 thejpster http://thumbsnap.com/KmjeEDop
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2018-07-23 11:41:23 ~japaric thejpster: +1
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2018-07-23 11:42:01 ~japaric ok, I think that covers all the icons
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2018-07-23 11:42:08 ~japaric if you think of something else feel free to write it down
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2018-07-23 11:42:17 ~japaric next section is documentation
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2018-07-23 11:42:23 ~japaric line 115 in the etherpad
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2018-07-23 11:42:35 ~japaric we have 3 books planned for the edition release
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2018-07-23 11:42:44 ~japaric we can use the same icon + text style for this section
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2018-07-23 11:43:07 ~japaric or we could keep it simple like the "Getting started", "View the code" buttons in https://www.zephyrproject.org/
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2018-07-23 11:43:29 ~japaric if we go with the icons we need to choose them
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2018-07-23 11:43:30 ~japaric thoughts?
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2018-07-23 11:44:03 thejpster As an aside, is Discovery going to move into the WG, or remain an @japaric thing?
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2018-07-23 11:44:18 thejpster If we've got a theme, let's stick with it. Icons + text + link is fine.
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2018-07-23 11:44:23 thejpster I like the chip idea, it's cute.
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2018-07-23 11:44:23 hannobraun I think the icons you suggested are fine. Can't think of anything better.
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2018-07-23 11:44:44 korken89_2 I would agree as well
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2018-07-23 11:44:52 ~japaric I think it should be under discovery.rust-embedded.org and under the rust-embedded GH org (once we nail down the GH orgs)
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2018-07-23 11:45:24 ~japaric alright then we go with the icons + text style and packages for the icons
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2018-07-23 11:45:44 thejpster ^^ sounds good to me
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2018-07-23 11:45:55 ~japaric ok, next section is testimonials
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2018-07-23 11:45:59 ~japaric line 142
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2018-07-23 11:46:21 ~japaric style and layout is tbd
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2018-07-23 11:46:34 hannobraun I'm still bugging people about testimonials. It's slow-going, but I hope I can get some more people to post in that issue.
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2018-07-23 11:46:49 ~japaric we got testimonials in https://github.com/rust-lang-nursery/embedded-wg/issues/108; I have picked two of them as examples
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2018-07-23 11:46:52 ~japaric hannobraun: +1
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2018-07-23 11:47:14 thenewwazoo haha I owe hannobraun one too :D
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2018-07-23 11:47:16 ~japaric any suggestions / examples for the style and layout of the testimonials?
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2018-07-23 11:47:26 thenewwazoo I've gotten approval from PR I just have to write it up
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2018-07-23 11:47:33 ~japaric thenewwazoo: +1
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2018-07-23 11:48:02 thejpster You can quote my video or my blog post if that helps.
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2018-07-23 11:48:04 ~japaric we probably don't this section to get too long
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2018-07-23 11:48:11 hannobraun Regarding the style of testimonials: How about both? Short summary on homepage, link to testimonials page, where there's a list of the full testimonials.
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2018-07-23 11:48:13 ~japaric too vertically long**
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2018-07-23 11:48:34 hannobraun thenewwazoo: Nice, thank you for working on it!
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2018-07-23 11:48:48 thejpster Maybe like a little carousel of company icons on the front page and then link through to the tweet-length quotes + logos + links.
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2018-07-23 11:49:05 thenewwazoo I was planning on writing about three sentences. "We wanted to cure ourselves of bugs that could be caught at compile time. Thanks to Rust, our teeth are whiter &c..."
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2018-07-23 11:49:41 ~japaric thenewwazoo: like https://s3.envato.com/files/165715490/6_slick_testimonial.jpg ?
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2018-07-23 11:49:49 ~japaric err, I meant thejpster ^
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2018-07-23 11:50:26 hannobraun thejpster: Sounds good, but if we can condense testimonials to one sentence, like japaric did for the examples, I'd think it would be good to show those sentences directly.
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2018-07-23 11:51:12 ~japaric I want to note that we'll work on refining the content / text on the embedded page during the 6 weeks after Preview 2 (August 2)
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2018-07-23 11:51:44 hannobraun japaric: I like that style, although maybe with company logos instead of faces.
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2018-07-23 11:52:49 ~japaric how about a one liner as header and then more complete text as in https://support.prontomarketing.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/202014164/Website-Platform-Testimonials-03.gif
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2018-07-23 11:53:00 ~japaric hannobraun: +1 on logo instead of face
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2018-07-23 11:53:20 korken89_2 I would agree on logos there instead of faces
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2018-07-23 11:53:23 thenewwazoo yeah, PR would never approve my face
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2018-07-23 11:54:21 ~japaric do we agree on carousel + logo + text + name + title?
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2018-07-23 11:54:59 thenewwazoo +1
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2018-07-23 11:55:15 thejpster +1
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2018-07-23 11:55:37 ~japaric ok, we can start working with that
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2018-07-23 11:55:45 ~japaric last section before we run out of time
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2018-07-23 11:56:03 hannobraun japaric: Sounds good.
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2018-07-23 11:56:13 ~japaric last section is friends in the spirit of https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/friends.html
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2018-07-23 11:56:46 thenewwazoo that seems like it'd be a superset of testimonials
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2018-07-23 11:56:50 ~japaric I think the idea here was to put some companies here that could not give too many details of their products, or give a testimonial
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2018-07-23 11:57:19 ~japaric the companies in the testimonials section would appear here as well
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2018-07-23 11:58:05 ~japaric but they could include a description of their product "what they made with Rust', instead of how they liked Rust
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2018-07-23 11:58:19 thenewwazoo I wonder if posting an appeal for testimonials/friends on HN would get enough attention to be useful
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2018-07-23 11:58:47 nagisa ain’t that a subset of friends of the usual Rust page?
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2018-07-23 11:59:18 ~japaric nagisa: it is but since it's a smaller set your logo is less likely to get lost in the sea of logos
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2018-07-23 11:59:24 thenewwazoo yeah, I'd think the Friends page would be (optionally link to post) logos with no text
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2018-07-23 12:00:21 hannobraun I don't think we need to limit the number of friends. It's the last item, and right now it probably won't be too many anyway.
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2018-07-23 12:00:30 thenewwazoo agreed
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2018-07-23 12:01:40 korken89_2 Indeed
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2018-07-23 12:02:06 ~japaric I think we can keep the section growing over time like friends of Rust grows
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2018-07-23 12:02:17 ~japaric companies add themselves via PR
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2018-07-23 12:02:37 korken89_2 japaric: +1
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2018-07-23 12:03:26 ~japaric ok, thanks everyone for the input. We'll take this to the website team and post updates on the GH issue and/or mention them in these meetings
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2018-07-23 12:03:45 ~japaric we are over time now but if anyone wants to give any update go ahead
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2018-07-23 12:04:57 ~japaric jamesmunns had this update regarding testing: https://github.com/rust-lang-nursery/embedded-wg/issues/129#issuecomment-407087928
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2018-07-23 12:05:23 ~japaric he's looking for suggestions on crates / code examples to test in rust-lang/rust CI
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2018-07-23 12:05:44 ~japaric I think you can contact him directly or leave a suggestion in the corresponding issue
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2018-07-23 12:05:58 ~japaric https://github.com/rust-lang-nursery/embedded-wg/issues/52
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2018-07-23 12:06:31 thejpster ok, i'll think on that one
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2018-07-23 12:06:41 ~japaric I have reaccomodated the remaining work items for the 2018 edition in two new milestones. See https://github.com/rust-lang-nursery/embedded-wg/milestones
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2018-07-23 12:07:59 ~japaric finally, I created an issue to discuss having math support in core. See https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/issues/2505 and leave comments if you have any thoughts on the topic.
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2018-07-23 12:08:21 ~japaric ok, that is all. Thank you all for attending! See you next week on IRC. Same time; same channel.
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2018-07-23 12:08:50 korken89_2 Thanks and see you all next time!
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2018-07-23 12:09:28 hannobraun Goodbye everyone!
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2018-07-23 12:09:34 * thejpster waves

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