picking a language name and moving to the next phase

[mflatt]

In several of the bi-weekly meetings (#180), we discussed moving from the Iterative Design phase to the Integration phase. We have now covered all of the items from our todo list from the most recent discussion, so it seems that we're ready.

The big step in that transition is picking a name for the language.

The plan's rationale for picking language name distinct from the project was that we would likely write things about the Rhombus project that turn out not to be true about the new language. As it happens, the language evolved in a relatively monotonic way, and we even published a paper using the project name where the paper's description of the language seems likely to stay accurate.

So, one perspective is that the name "Rhombus" is fine, and we should preserve the momentum that we have. We can pick "Rhombus" — new name, same as the old name.

Another perspective is that the name "Rhombus" is arbitrary (the first non-occupied "R" word I thought of while preparing RacketCon'19 slides the morning before speaking), and we can do better. To consider that route, we need alternatives.

Reply in this discussion to brainstorm names. Provide just one name in each reply, so others can offer informal vote-like reactions (by clicking the face icon in GitHub below the comment).

[mflatt]

Roar

This is one of few simple noise-related words I can find that does not seem to be taken.

[Metaxal]

I find this one a little difficult to say or even hear — I'm sure everyone is going to ask me to spell it.

[mflatt]

Rhombus

A placeholder for the current name, so we can collect reactions to the possibility of keeping it.

[Metaxal]

I like this name for its originality, its relation to mathematical principles (as in "we thought really hard while designing this new simple and clean language") and for not trying to be "cool" (what's cool one year is has-been the next one). My main worry though is that people who hear it for the first time might think it's too dedicated to geometry libraries and not a proper general programming language — though perhaps this worry is misguided?

[spdegabrielle]

Names have stickiness. I still see people use the first placeholder name.

[spdegabrielle]

@Metaxal i share your concerns

[samth]

I still like Rhombus more than any other suggestion. It departs from the Racket and Scheme tradition, it lends itself to logos and other graphics, it's memorable and unused, and it's already gained some mind share, including a published paper.

[Metaxal]

Shrubbery

[Lazerbeak12345]

The Monty Python and the Holy Grail references would be inevitable with this one.

(not bad thing or good thing)

[spdegabrielle]

https://docs.racket-lang.org/shrubbery/language.html

[Metaxal]

@Lazerbeak12345 Then it may be too reminiscent of Python, which is probably not a good thing :/

[Metaxal]

Shrub

[spdegabrielle]

Rocket 🚀

Suggested by @jeapostrophe in #rhombus https://discord.com/channels/571040468092321801/871953739982995547/893496711358586891

[jeapostrophe]

I think it suggests inter-planetary human expansion, defying boundaries, doing amazing things, being really cool, having impressive explosions, and Elton John, which I think are all extremely on-brand.

[usaoc]

I don’t like how this name could be associated with the infamous “blazing fast” Rust meme, especially with the emoji :P

[spdegabrielle]

I don’t know the rust meme.
Speed is not a focus because the current implementation is backed by a modern compiler that generates pretty fast native code.

[mflatt]

Not exactly a language, but a Rust Web framework uses this name: https://rocket.rs/guide/v0.5/introduction/

[spdegabrielle]

Want to give this another bump. Rockets are hot right now and will be for the foreseeable future. This is a great name.

[Metaxal]

MaLex

for "lexical" macros

[Metaxal]

MaStic

Macros with static information

[spdegabrielle]

[sorawee]

Just want to note one potential downside of this, which is that it could be super confusing to talk about the language in conversation. Which "Racket" are we talking about.

[Metaxal]

I suppose an English-native person could hear the difference, but a French one certainly wouldn't.

[spdegabrielle]

Good point 🤣

[sorawee]

Rogue (continuing the theme of illegal activities, starting with "R")

[mflatt]

Existing language with this name: https://github.com/brombres/Rogue

[spdegabrielle]

We don’t want to have the rust problem. They share a name with a popular video game.

'rogue programming' ! is that programming in rogue-lang? or programming a rogue-like?

rogue-dev etc.

I'd also suggest the community is of comparable size.

[spdegabrielle]

I don't like the illegal activities aspect. Not for a professional tool.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/sentences/english/rogue

[benknoble]

Although also possibly negative, "roguish"/"rogueish" can mean "mischievous" or "playful." As someone else pointed out, the Gambit synergy is fun, too.

I appreciate the professionalism concern, but I already usually have to explain what Racket is (to say nothing of absurd names like Terraform—infrastructure management has nothing to do with terraforming?—or even niche things like Dhall). Naming things is hard. To non-programmers, we already spew nonsense and gibberish.

Rogue not being too serious is, for me, a feature rather than a bug.

[spdegabrielle]

It absolutely is a name with negative connotations https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/rogue#rogue__1

Check the sentences section for examples that include ‘rogue code’

[Metaxal]

Rupture

[jbclements]

First one to make me literally LoL. Not ... that that's probably a good thing. FWIW, I voted against the change from Scheme to Racket, so I'm already firmly on the wrong side of history there.

[lojic]

Raket

Racket without the paren (c). I agree with the pronunciation comment about Rhacket above, so we would have to pronounce it as "raked".

[Lazerbeak12345]

Something like /reɪkt/?

[spdegabrielle]

[spdegabrielle]

This was meant to be a reference to the Broca area of the brain linked to speech production. Not - according to GitHub translation - ‘drill bit’ in Spanish.

[soegaard]

Chameleon

[spdegabrielle]

I really like this one. I feel it expresses the capacity for change that macros on a bring

[Lazerbeak12345]

I at one point was making a competitor to racket by the same name - however I renamed it. It also has never become popular, because I discovered racket.

I'm not worried about the use of this name - but I don't remember why I changed my project's name away from that. Perhaps there's already a name conflict?

[soegaard]

There is a language named Caméléon.

[spdegabrielle]

I like it but I think it is too long and a good proportion of devs will need a spellchecker to spell it successfully

[jbclements]

Hmm... sounds like OCaml-eon

[ashton314]

Rivet

[AlexKnauth]

Shriek: Loud noise like Racket, starting with "Sh" like Shrubbery and Shplait

[eszpakowski]

Chant

[sorawee]

Argot.

Was going to suggest Slang, but it's already taken: https://github.com/slang-lang/slang. Thesaurus suggests Argot as an alternative.

Pidgin is also a suggestion, but it's already taken too: https://iss.oden.utexas.edu/?p=projects/pidgin

[spdegabrielle]

I like that

[spdegabrielle]

Also ‘Polari’ used by Punch and Judy performers

[benknoble]

I would avoid pidgin, which has often been used to classify languages as non-languages in order to suppress cultures.

[sorawee]

Macaron: from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macaronic_language. Note that "It is generally derogatory and used when the mixing of languages has a humorous or satirical intent or effect but is sometimes applied to more serious mixed-language literature.", though I don't know if that's still the case in modern usage.

Also close enough to macro.

Also confection.

[soegaard]

I like it! The logo is easy. I have only positive connotations wrt macarons.
And it it includes macros.

[soegaard]

Another reason to like macaron: There are "adjacent" names for projects.

Like in the Java-world where projects often have coffee related names.

[mflatt]

Not exactly languages, but two projects using this name: a Go web framework https://go-macaron.com/ and an analysis tool https://oracle.github.io/macaron/. I also find libraries like https://github.com/ecordell/pymacaroons that seem to implement a variant of cookies in the web-browser sense.

[jbclements]

Howl

Continues from Yawp and Racket, Ginsburg reference lands very vaguely near steal your face. (stretching further:) contains owl, mascot of Rice? Makes me think of Howland Owl, beloved Walt Kelly Pogo character? Leads toward Haskell/Howl collab called Thurston, rich buffoon from Gilligan's island?

I'm also taken by other un-cool noise-related names: weep, blather, din

Okay, sorry, back to work

[spdegabrielle]

An owl would be a great mascot. Is there a language called ‘Hoot’ yet?

[olopierpa]

A rebus is an intentionally obfuscated way of saying something. Not a good name for a programming language.

…

On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 2:00 AM Sam Phillips ***@***.***> wrote: Rebus There is at least a C# library with the same name. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#510 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AA2MTYN6CHTD7SCNBVJZ3WDZHN73VAVCNFSM6AAAAABJKJZQG2VHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43SRDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHM4TONZZGI4DS> . You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message ID: ***@***.*** .com>

[ashton314]

Rebuses are meant to be fun puzzles. I think it's a great name!

[Metaxal]

Rebound

[Metaxal]

Rebind

To give a new meaning to something

[eszpakowski]

Gist.

noun. the choicest or most essential or most vital part of some idea or experience.

[ashton314]

Ni (pronounced "nee")

You must bring us… a shrubbery! A nice one. And not too expensive…

[johannesrld]

this was also proposed on lobste.rs, I love it lol.

[sorawee]

Rumble

[mflatt]

From the June 27 meeting: The leading contenders so far are Rogue and Rhombus. We also liked Rumble, and so Sorawee added that one to the discussion.

Rogue had the most support. One problem is that a language already uses that name, but most felt that we could use it, anyway.

[LiberalArtist]

For anyone else catching up, here are the threads on Rogue and Rhombus.

[spdegabrielle]

'Clay' or something similar for its plasticity

[LiberalArtist]

Quest

It fits the alphabetic Scheme -> Racket -> Q* pattern @bzyeung identified in #510 (reply in thread), and it also fits thematically with Planner -> Conniver -> Scheme[r] -> Racket in the sense that you might have a quest, scheme, or plan to achieve some goal.

Conflicts: The closest seems to be a text-adventure game engine that uses a scripting language called ASL which is described in some places as "the Quest game language". There are also VR headsets, an English teaching program in Toronto, a translation service, and an MIT research program.

[spdegabrielle]

It’s nice and short, lacks negative connotations, and is easy to spell!

[sorawee]

I like the name as well, but want to note

• https://github.com/sampersand/quest is an actual programming language, though it appears there are not a lot of users, and there's no active development.
• https://codingquest.io/ is a relatively well-known programming challenge site for high school students.

[mflatt]

Thanks, everyone, for brainstorming names and contributing to the discussion!

I'm not seeing consensus on a any of the names, yet, but I think that a consensus on continuing to use the name Rhombus is within reach.

Many other names with a lot of interest are already used in some relevant way: Rogue (video game known well enough that "Rougue-like" is a recognizable adjective), Rocket (web framework with an order of magnitude more GitHub stars than Racket), Rhyme (multiple languages), Macaron (multiple frameworks and tools), Quest (Meta), and even Rumble (video-sharing site). Opinions vary on how much these conflicts matter, but after thinking about it a while, picking an unoccupied name has become a primary concern for me. There are also other good objections to some of these names, such as having a nefarious connotation.

I think the main objection to the name Rhombus is that it doesn't have any intrinsic attraction or clever meaning, and we didn't want to miss an opportunity to pick a better name. That was certainly my motivation for driving this thread. But I also like the name Rhombus, and @samth has summarized the good points well.

I've reached out to people who registered downvotes for the name Rhombus, and I believe they would happy enough to keep the name after all — now that we've done the due diligence of exploring other possibilities.

We'll take this up one more time at this week's meeting (#180).

[sorawee]

I think Rhombus is great. No objection from me.

But just to nitpick, for the "unoccupied name" concern, I think Rhombus the security camera system is probably as "occupied" as Rumble the video sharing site or Rogue the game, if not more. It's more relevant to programming, with API that people can call. Microsoft in fact even has a tutorial on how to integrate Rhombus with their product.

[mflatt]

Oh, thank you for that pointer. As many times as I searched "rhombus" and "rhombus language", I never managed to notice that one. But I see now that I just missed it in the list of search results.

[otherjoel]

IMHO, the sheer current-day ubiquity of “rogue-like” actually lifts “rogue” away from any close association with the 44-year-old video game. Though no stranger to video games from all eras, I had myself completely forgotten that Rogue was an actual game. But I also think “Pong” and “Quake” would make great names for a new language, so take that for what it’s worth.

[rfindler]

I thought the concern about name "Rogue" being already occupied stemmed from this: https://github.com/brombres/Rogue

[mflatt]

In the meeting today, we agreed on Rhombus as the permanent name!

Next steps, expected to happen next week:

• This rhombus-prototype repo will be renamed rhombus.
• The renamed repo will be reorganized into multiple packages, such as rhombus-lib, rhombus-doc, rhombus, rhombus-pict-lib, etc. (That is, we won't create separate repos to hold different Rhombus packages, for now.)
• For near-term compatibility, we'll adjust the rhombus-prototype package registration so that it refers to a package in the reorganized repo, and that package will depend on a suitable set of the other packages.

[AlexKnauth]

The one with the tests and docs could just be the rhombus package, I don't see why a -dev suffix would help.

[LiberalArtist]

I've also been tentatively trying this two-package structure (foo and foo-lib, rather than four with foo, foo-lib, foo-doc, and foo-test).

[mflatt]

I'll go with rhombus-lib and rhombus.

I thought I might remember some reason for the choice, but the only motivation I remember for a more fine-grained split was to separate tests from documentation, which I think hasn't turned out to matter.

[LiberalArtist]

I thought I might remember some reason for the choice, but the only motivation I remember for a more fine-grained split was to separate tests from documentation, which I think hasn't turned out to matter.

I can imagine it might matter for some specific package with very extensive tests or significant test dependencies, but the big dependency concern seems to be the large cycle involving racket-doc.

[mflatt]

Here's a tentative package split: https://github.com/mflatt/rhombus-prototype/tree/split

Every directory other than "resources" and "design" will be registered as a package. Then, to get a repo checkout with everything registered as a package, you'll be able to use raco pkg install --clone path/to/rhombus rhombus-main-distribution.