Parametric masks - manual & UI mismatch

[NohWayJose]

I'm using 5.0.1 and want to work on CR3 files from my Canon R6 mkii

I saw a YouTube video about using Lightroom's Luminance (and other) masks and want to try the same or nearest equivalent tasks in Darktable. I have deduced that parametric masks are the same or similar but looking at the manual (admittedly not yet at 5.0.1) but it's annoyingly unhelpful with "click on one of the channel tabs..." but a search of all modules in the UI gives no assistance about what or where a 'channel tab' lives.

I raised the issue for three reasons

1. Please can you let me know where to look for this tab
2. Please add that explanation to the manual (back level and upcoming)
3. Let me know whether I can help work with you on UI simplification options (I'm a UX researcher & designer with around 30 years experience from embedded to mainframe, via IDEs & Web)

Many thanks

Greg

[paperdigits]

1. The tabs are g, R, G, B, Jz, Cz, and Hz.
2. It seems relatively clear here: https://docs.darktable.org/usermanual/development/en/darkroom/masking-and-blending/masks/parametric/#channel-tabs Is this what you were looking at?
3. Yes, please open issues where things are ripe for improvement.

[NohWayJose]

Thanks, yes, that link is where I think it's very unclear!
The Help Document describes once in the overview how masks work but a search for 'darktable luminance mask', in Lightroom parlance returns 'Darktable parametric mask' hits, including a link to the page I used and you suggested, so I didn't enter viaOverview and missed this vital info, hence this issue and my confusion. Viewing all modules and searching for parametric mask returns NO modules! and even searching for masks returns nothing

I think I'm beginning to understand why. Lightroom treats masks as a universal selection mechanism, to which a subsequent adjustment can be applied. This combo of masks and adjustments is (I think) then stored in an adjustment layer, so the masks and adjustments can be altered and reordered relative to other adjustment layers.
DarkTable seems to take a different approach: each module has a section in its UI that can specify masks (drawn and/or parametric). Each mask specification is intimately associated with the module. I don't yet fully understand the implications of this (assuming I've understood the basics correctly) but questions I'd like to understand from the docs include (and for each, a worked sample would be great):

• Can I create compound masks (e.g. a parametric mask with a drawn mask subtracted from it)?
• Can I have multiple compound masks on one module?
• Can I interleave masks so I order moduleA:mask1, then moduleB:mask1, then moduleA:mask2 and how easy is it to reorder?
• How do I remove a mask - drawn and/or parametric
• How do I easily use a set of masks on a different photo
• I'm sure I'll think of more after I press submit ;P

Also, I understand that there's a presumption that the UI should be neutral and understated, to minimise distraction from the photo being worked on. There are downsides to this and I suspect there are simple ways to avoid distraction and maintain a clearer and easy to understand UI. I know the theme can be changed but they are largely similar (not a biggie though). My proposal is that, in conjunction with a clearer UI style that may distract more, if you haven't already got one, a key combo to show only the photo while it's pressed or toggling, hiding everything else.

The visual demarcation between modules is unclear to me. I know there is a turn on/off (circle/bar) icon for each but when several modules are open these icons get lost in the visual noise. I suspect a little visual demarcation or separation would go a long way. When contracted, it would be useful to also see a visual treatment or icon that indicates that there is a mask or more applied to the module

Is there a mode where I can limit the modules shown to only those I've applied to a photo and can I name that collection and all/some of the settings in them, so I can apply them as a set on a different photo?

[elstoc]

This bug seems to now be a rather broad mix of

• requests for help with darktable. Can I suggest you use forums like discuss.pixls.us for help with these
• suggestions for improvement of the application (raise against the darktable repository - https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/issues)
• possible documentation issues

The documentation issues raised here do not seem to be particularly actionable, and it's hard to know what we could do with them. Can I suggest that you start with my suggestion for the first point and then raise more specific suggestions for the other two once you have a better handle on exactly what the problems are and suggestions to resolve them. The smaller the issue and the more specific your suggested resolutions, the better chance they have of being actioned

[paperdigits]

If you're going to insist on imposing Lightroom UI/UX ideas/concepts onto darktable, you're probably going to have a bad time. They might achieve the same end, they might have a similar look (right side control with sliders), but that's about where it ends. The actual use is quite differnt, and trying to work or understand it in the purview of lightroom will only leave you frustrated.

[elstoc]

I'm gonna close this for now, but feel free to raise further issues with more specific suggestions

[NohWayJose]

If you're going to insist on imposing Lightroom UI/UX ideas/concepts onto darktable, you're probably going to have a bad time. They might achieve the same end, they might have a similar look (right side control with sliders), but that's about where it ends. The actual use is quite differnt, and trying to work or understand it in the purview of lightroom will only leave you frustrated.

@elstoc Yeah sorry for the bucket list. I was in a hurry and writing as I was trying stuff between meetings. I'll move my conversation and suggestions to your suggested link for RFEs

@elstoc regarding the doc suggestions actionability (my bullets) - they require the doc to include goal oriented sections and not a primary concentration on describing functions in a technical way.
For example:
Creating a mask to highlight a foreground object and isolate it from other foreground objects and the background:
then Describe HOW to achieve that with the various tools available and perhaps with a sample image (before) to try it out & an after image to show the goal.

@paperdigits No one's insisting on anything. Because I come from a UX background, the comparison with Lightroom was not started from the point of view that it must be better, merely by way of a comparison of how understandable and usable both were. I was really just documenting both for similarity/difference of goal, implementation and ease of learning/use.

What are the characteristics of the target users - at a guess, I'd say highly technical and prepared to read a lot of technical details and have knowledge beyond the Darktable docs.

I think new starters would generally have to evolve into that model whether they're initially technically able or not.

Not looking for an argument but I'll certainly defend my experience of understanding users and highly technical UI and its simplification without compromising on capability. I am happy to help BTW

[elstoc]

they require the doc to include goal oriented sections and not a primary concentration on describing functions in a technical way

This is something we have explicitly chosen to exclude from the documentation and we don't currently have plans to add it, outside of the introductory sections

[NohWayJose]

@elstoc I'd love to know why? It seems mad, but perhaps this closed issue isn't the place to revisit that decision

[elstoc]

Because "how to do things" is subjective as there are multiple ways to do most things in darktable, and it's therefore very hard to objectively decide whether something is "correct" or "the best way". How it functions is much less subjective and therefore easier to be accurate and correct.

Also, there are very few people writing the documentation and we don't even have the resources to keep on top of the functional descriptions. So we don't have time to write such sections or to maintain them (since they will get out of date) once they're written.

[paperdigits]

What are the characteristics of the target users
someone who....

1. wants to participate
2. wants to learn more about making better images via post processing
3. desires a high degree of control and choice in their image editing
4. is curious
5. (hopefully) has some humility

I think (hope?) that we've built a friendly community who can help new users navigate thru darktable. I think the introductory section on processing should get you a very good image, then its up to you where you want to take that and what exactly you want to do, and documenting that would be a nightmare. I've already dealt with it-- as soon as you write something, someone will want to change it with their own way. And that is fine, and I think that all ways that reliably get you where you want to go are valid... but I don't want to document them and I don't want the responsibility for keeping them up to date.

I think there might be some general misconception that darktable is trying hard to attract new users or somehow wants to grow in the number of end users (as opposed to contributors) that is has. And I bet if you ask everyone who participates in darktable, you'll get a different answer from each. As open source often goes, I think we're building a tool for the people who are already users, as that is about as much as we can do. The discourse we have during development and testing is what shapes the tools.

I get that can be difficult as a new user, but again, that's why we have community.

[NohWayJose]

Where can we continue this conversation, as I acknowledge your comment about this issue not being an appropriate place!.

I want to challenge some of these working presumptions but I don't want to create confrontation. I'm sure we are united in our interest in Darktable being as good as it can be but clearly there are limitations on the delivery of code and documentation. Understanding the users is key to delivering the right capabilities, in the right way, and can make delivery much more efficient. I fear that contributors each have their own view of the typical user or the best way to do stuff and may be wedded to the design status quo but without having tested different types of users, each of whom may have different needs. The status quo may, and don't flame me for this, not be the best way to do stuff. and forcing users to just tackle the learning curve is a cop-out. Darktabe is a big and complex tool. but if we tackle areas in bite sized chunks, there must be low-hanging-fruit where we can make improvements

I am keen to help because I find the deeply technical descriptions in the doc don't help me achieve what I want to do with my photography. It's great that there's a community to help people through the complexity and variety but mining and recording that knowledge could be a great way to make Darktable easier without even changing it.

I have successfully done this sort of job working with mainframe software, which is likely more complex, and certainly larger, working with developers and information developers, as well as subject matter experts. Is anyone up for a call sometime (I'm UK time but am fine to overlap with Europe and/or US)

@paperdigits I would love to chat about your last post. I hope your point 5 wasn't your fear about me? I'm intrigued about your conflation (or at least inclusion) of non-contributing Darktable users and code/doc contributers, who are presumably also users. To date, I'm in the first category and presume you are both (@elstoc & @paperdigits ) in the latter?

Peace, and hope we can have a call or Teams (or suchlike) meeting

[paperdigits]

Where can we continue this conversation, as I acknowledge your comment about this issue not being an appropriate place!.

If you want real time, then #darktable in IRC or matrix (though this probably isn't best, Chris and I are in different time zones, and we have no idea where you are).

If you want the whole community to weigh in, then https://discuss.pixls.us in the darktable category. If you don't want the whole community, then a DM on pixls is good with me, I'm always there.

If you want to explicitly bring in the devs, then open an issue against the darktable repo

I want to challenge some of these working presumptions but I don't want to create confrontation.

yes of course, I don't want to come off as confrontational, but there is a maximum amount of typing I can devote to this, and this isn't the first time this has come up ;)

I fear that contributors each have their own view of the typical user or the best way to do stuff and may be wedded to the design status quo

I think in some places you're maybe giving us too much credit.

but without having tested different types of users, each of whom may have different needs.

Yeah that def. does not happen. I don't know that anyone actually contributing significant code is even interested in that (though I'm happy to be wrong).

I have successfully done this sort of job working with mainframe software, which is likely more complex, and certainly larger, working with developers and information developers, as well as subject matter experts.

Excellent, I was a technical writer for over a decade and now am doing doc architecture and tooling development.

Is anyone up for a call sometime (I'm UK time but am fine to overlap with Europe and/or US)

Sure, but I'd rather flush some things out in text first to make sure we're all on the same page.

I hope your point 5 wasn't your fear about me?

Nope, not at all. Being a technical oriented app, we attract technical people. I've found that the more technically apt a person is, the more they want to push their own knowledge and views onto people, processes, and code. Sometimes that goes well, and sometimes it doesn't. Humility would help that process, but it is mostly wishful thinking.

I'm intrigued about your conflation (or at least inclusion) of non-contributing Darktable users and code/doc contributers, who are presumably also users. To date, I'm in the first category and presume you are both (@elstoc & @paperdigits ) in the latter?

I've been answer quesions and doing user support for darktable for a while. I've been doing moderation of the pixls.us forum for over a decade and have by far the most time spent there ot of an user. I sometimes write things for the docs, Chris wrote a bunch of docs and contributes some code. Both of us are maintainers of the docs. I am the maintainer of the website. I think both of us have less time now to dedicate to darktable than previously.

This isn't meant as a dig at you, or anyone really, just saying what I've seen: a lot of people have a lot of ideas. Some of them are even good. Hearing good ideas is good, but implementing good ideas is better. While recently we seem to be getting more docs contributions, which is good, it hasn't yet played out over a longer period of time. To that effect, I'd say both Chris and I meet things with skepticism.

Anyway def. ping me wherever you decide to take this conversation.

Peace, and hope we can have a call or Teams (or suchlike) meeting

A call, yes. But you'll never catch me on Teams in my personal time D:

[NohWayJose]

Thanks both. It's bed time for me but I hope to be able to move this forward in a positive and constructive way, if I can.

Cheers, Greg